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Hi Peter

 

I need help with this one. I seem to have nothing but trouble with farriers and my horses feet. My mare was the last one now my gelding has gone lame and i had the vet out today and he has extremely bruised heels and very bad feet with no much wall left. The vet did say it was caused by the farrier although he didnt have good feet to start with.

 

The vet has suggested putting cytec shoes on but i have heard some bad things about these and now do not know what to do. He can not be ridden at the moment. I have tried barefoot but he was constantly lame so i dont know which is better for him.

 

Help. I can take photos if you require them

 

Denise

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Hi Denise,

Sorry to hear that Jaffa is lame, I dont have any experience with the cytek shoes, but I was wondering if the vet said what the farrier actually did to cause the problem and how the cytec shoe would help him?

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Hi Denise . . . . sorry to hear about Jaffa. When I first bought Max, I had him shod in the front only and the shoes were similar to cytec, but not true cytec. Cytec shoes are very broad across the front and usually require a deep bevel at the toe . . . . it's all to do with break-over point, etc which is a bit beyond me. The shoes are very heavy and far more rigid than "normal" shoes.

 

I would have a good chat with Peter Laidley, even a consultation if you can get one . . . . he will do it via phone and photos.

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Let me throw my hat into the ring here as we did trial cytek shoes about 10 years ago when they first became popular ( and many others also )- I have learned a lot about podiatry since then and am happy to say that in my opinion you cant fix a foot by putting it in a "cast" which is essentially what shoes are - we need to rehabilitate feet by allowing them to move as nature intended. A good barefoot trim on a REGULAR basis ( which will address the question of breakover) ,the use of podiatry boots if needed to ensure the foot is landing heel first and a sound nutrition and exercise program has proven to be most successful ( surprise surprise!! ) - expect to take 9 months to rehabilitate the basic hoof structure and the hoof will continue to improve well beyond that time.Properly marked xrays can help to assess the progress being made and assist the farrier/vet in how to trim . Feel free to contact me for appropriate vet/farrier advice in your area

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I have to tread very carefully here as I was a supporter of Cytek shoes many years ago. But all our Cytek shod horses experienced hind quarter atrophy (Muscle Wasting) because of the early break over effect caused by the Cytek shoes. The action of the early breakover removed the moment of resistance between the hoof and the ground where the horse responds to the ground traction that worked these muscles. After removing the shoes during periods of spelling, the horses had hind quarter muscle pain as they started to rework these muscles again.

If we imagine trying to walk without our toes, this might be what we are creating with the Cytek shoes. The Cytek Shoes did not appear to cause a problem with the front hooves and did appear to improve the horses movement.

 

After many more years research I now endeavour to keep all my horses barefoot and they can become more sensitive to rough ground after trimming but not lame unless there is an underlying problem that needs to be addressed. i.e. balance, nutrition joint injury. I hope this helps.

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Stick with Dr Debs advice, its the best youll find & the one that makes the most sense. Go barefoot & booted, feed right & trim regularly such as every week & ahalf to 2 weeks as damaged feet grow fast.

It takes time but its worth it in the end.

 

Cass

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Hi DrDeb

 

I have tried to PM you but it dosnt work, can i email or something. Or my contact is 0419 750 854 or dniit_19@hotmail.com

 

Thanks Denise

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Hi Denise

the farrier I use is Dennis Cherry no0418 790 402 he is a barefoot trimmer and I have been using him for over a year now, I find him reliable and he has just finished podiatry course in Melbourne , I'm not sure how far he will travel but give him a call you can only ask or he might know someone in your area, or be able to give some advice. goodluck I know how upsetting it is when you have a lame horse.

kind regards

Di

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Oh Dear...

 

If anyone even thinks of "Cytec Shoes" we should all run a mile...

 

Something should be gleaned from the story of how the "inventor" recieved the origional concept (which was to copy a "Natural Ballance" aluminium shoe in cast steel" without giving credit to Gene Ovnecek for stealing his design and corupting it.... this all happened while the "Inventor" was in goal for fraud....

 

Other than that two years in Cytec shoes are gauranteed to give 12 o'clock hoofwall cracks right up to the coronary band...

 

OK I may be totaly wrong but do not say I did not warn you!!!!!!

 

Peter

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Hi Denise I have had some experience with cytec shoes in NZ from my experience they cause more probs than what they are worth, I have found the best thing for my horses is good barefoot trimming and good boots when riding which give natural hoof movement, the boots I would suggest are renegade

Neville

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Go barefoot, Yes, it may take a very long time, I had one horse that was shod all her life she was so crippled without shoes it was horrible. It took 5 years with NO shoes to regrow and strengthen everything that needed to be strengthened, but we got there. I'm so lucky all but 1 horse I have now have NEVER been shod and I can ride them anywhere. The one pony that was shod and was allowed to founder I am still working on, nearly 18 months now but she is so worth it.

 

Cheers Tracey.

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Go Boots, get some boots, cant recommend them highly enough. the websites give instructions on how to fit them, you cant go wrong!!! cheaper (in the long run) safer and the main benefit is a sound horse...

Cheers

Jill.

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Guest PeterLaidely

G’day Denise!!!

 

Please note that Peter sometimes uses boots but in my opinion shoes are steel crutches and boots are plastic crutches.

 

Boots are useful at times but if your horse is sound it will never actually need boots…

 

Yes you should have them… but, sort of like All Bran, if you need them you actually need something else instead…

 

Peter Laidely

www.hoofworksaustralia.com

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Oh peter, youv never ridden a sound barefoot horse over the Cobar gravel.....no boots = no go

My blokes been in boots for nearly 3 years & hes got brillant feet, doesnt trip (he used to be dangerous due to his tripping).

You dont leave them on 24/7, unlike shoes, & as Im not on a farm but a double house block in town I dont have the room to properly condition feet to a state that boots arent needed.

Lifes hard enough without adding a "cat on a hot tin roof" horse as well......boots make things just a little bit easier.

 

Cass

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G'day Cass

 

You have just agreed with me and confirmed what I said...

 

By all means, get boots and use them when you need them...

 

And do not expect a horse who lives in a domestic situation to have "properly conditioned feet"....

 

BUT ...YES I have ridden barefoot horses on lots of rocks and gravel...

 

Some of those that have had "domestic" hoofs were ouchy..

 

The really sound ones were just carefull where they put their feet.

 

Even if you do have to keep your horses in a small block they should have rocks to stand on (crushed basalt or limestone..NOT granite especially if it is ever really wet...)

 

If horses live with rocks and gravel, and does not have continual low grade laminitis, then even domestic horses will probably be able to walk on rocks and gravel..

 

If they live on grass (or mud) and eat green grass or more than 5% of the dry weight of their food as grain, or any molasses... or even one slice of bread...

 

Then by all means make sure you always have boots because you will need them...

 

But if a horse is not sound without boots or shoes then it is not really sound...

 

This is no reason for a guilt trip or an argument... But I am always going to try to get folk to improve the micro environment and feeding regime rather than look for quick answers to allow us to continue doing things which are not helpful...

 

In my opinion, which no one has to agree with if they do not want to, boots are definitly an answer, but they are an answer to a result, not an answer to the cause.

 

Peter

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Guest Denise Niit

Hi Peter and All

 

Some of the above is very confusing and as i am one of those owners who do not know about feet and do trust in my farriers and vet i do not know which direction to take now. I did go ahead and get Cytecs put on jaffa as i did not know what to do and now he has them on yes he is sound but i do not think he is comfortable, therefore i am asking for help as my vet tells me it would be a mistake to leave him barefoot because of the way his feet are and the cytec guy ensures me there are no ongoing problems, my vets assistant has had cytecs on her horse for 3 years now and is having no trouble. So my dilema is where do i go from here. If i pull the cytecs off jaffa will be extremely sore and not happy at all. He has feet that flair out and is quite flat footed and had terrible bruising on his heels when the vet came to see him when he went lame, this was when he told me there was hardly any wall to put shoes on with and that the only thing to do was the cytecs. I had a discussion with him about leaving him barefoot but he said he wouldnt recommend it. I also had a friend who took her horse from being shod to being barefoot he had trouble for years and then ended up being put down due to his feet and i dont want that either. I have done a lot of research on the cytecs and there is a lot against and then a lot for them, this mainly is from people who use them as a last resort as i suppose i have. My question now is if i am not happy with the cytecs and wish to remove them and leave him barefoot who can i trust to help me out and am i doing the right thing by jaffa if he is going to be so sore for so long wont that make him miserable too. We live on fairly grassy land but it does become very soggy with all the rain we are having and before the cytecs i put boots on him while he had all the brusing but he lost them in the mud and it took 2 days to find them in the paddock, so i dont think putting boots on him would work either. Where do i go from here?

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Hi Denise,

 

I understand your dilema - it is not easy to trust yourself and go against the opinion of professionals you respect, specially when your dear horse looks so sore.....

 

The fact is (not an opinion - a fact) that Jaffa is sore without shoes on because his feet are unhealthly and damaged. This can be cause by many things, but usually, in the domestic horse situation, it is a combination of mismanagment of their diet, their movement and their environment.... and the fact that they are shod or trimmed incorrectly. So putting shoes on is helping us deal with their soreness, but not them.....

 

I have transitioned many horses easily - but it was the one that couldn't move after I took his shoes off that really tested my conviction, my beliefs, my gut instinct and my trust and relationship with my vet! So I know how you are feeling - so difficult when you have so many conflicting "opinions" coming your way.

 

So - go find the facts. The only way you will be able to help Jaffa through this in the best way possible is by doing research, reading about what shoes do, or don't do to horse's feet, find out about why we put shoes on in the first place all that time ago and ponder if we really need them now.

 

Read other people's story about going barefoot. The story of the horse I referred to above is on this forum. If you seach for "Nektar" it should come up. Only yesterday Zoe (his new owner) came on the forum to share the success of Nektar's barefoot journey, two years on - it is truly inspiring!

 

Once you have enough facts on hand then you will have to make up your own mind as to what you think is best for your horse, because that is what you are going to do regardless of what all of us say to you.... us "barefooters" just all hope you will choose to go barefoot because we all know, from the bottom of our guts, that it is the right thing for our horses. I, for one, have seen it work over, and over, and over.... I have absolutely no doubt in my mind!!

 

Go and become an owner that does know a little bit about feet ... that's all it takes! The fact that you are here asking us is a good starting point,!!

 

Lots of love Denise - please skype me if you want to have a further heart to heart about it.

 

Monica x

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Well i figured i would use this post as an update to jaffa progress, i did do the cytec thing and quickly removed them as well, jaffas health went downhill quickly and he soon told me he was not happy or comfortable with them on.

 

Today i had a barefoot trimmer come and look and we are starting on the track of barefoot for jaffa. His back feet are good thank god but his front as not so good. I will keep an update on here of each trim and how they are going. Will post pictures tonight. Maybe Peter can give me his opinion on the photos.

 

Denise

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Yeah Denise!!! clapping.gif Somewhere in my QS life I have heard that just because something seems to work - doesn't make it right. (I think it must be Shane says that) Sometimes shoes may seem to solve problems - I think it's much better to get the horses feet right and have them do what they were meant to. I know with my head and my heart this is the right thing to do. Good on you for putting in that bit more effort so that Jaffa can have the hooves he should have.thumbsup.gif

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clapping.gifclapping.gifclapping.gifclapping.gifclapping.gifclapping.gif

 

 

I am so happy for Jaffa!!!! If he could, he would give you a big hug.... so here goes on his behalf .... (((((((huugggg)))))))!

 

Keep us posted! x

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Fantastic to here that youv gone barefoot. Photos show pretty decent feet really, you just need to maintain his trim & get some boots.

Boots are great, they take my buttery footed girls blouse & makes him an all terrain pony ( hes only booted on the fronts, the backs have to follow & are tougher...so it seems).

again, great news & best of luck.......just stick with it.....its like QS it takes time.

Cass

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Well we are over a week since jaffa has been barefoot and look like we have a abcess in one of his back feet he is very sore and lame. Have poulticed it and increased the biotin and comfrey and msm and have to barefoot trimmer coming for a check up. Apart from that he is coping ok bit tender on the harder ground but did seem much happier until this abcess. Hopefully he wont be in pain for too long.

 

Will update post again after check up

 

Denise

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Oh poor Jaffa - I'm hoping he's already over the worst on the mend.

 

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Just thought i would give another update, Jaffa is now over his abcess and has had a trim and all is looking good, he still has a long way to go but he is back out in the bigger paddock and getting around fine. He is still a bit tender on the harder surfaces. I lunged him yesterday to see how he would go and he was very happy to walk trot and canter with no sign of lameness. He does have a crack in the center of the worst from foot which i am watching but the bare foot trimmer said she was happy with his progress. I will take some more photos tomorrow and put them up. I have now managed to get all but 1 of my horses barefoot. Butterfly is treading softely still but she has only had them off for about a week and i know she is fine barefoot as she was always that way until we had all the wet weather and i had lots of troubel with her feet. So glad i made the decision for jaffa though, his skin is clearing up he seems happier and when i look at the cytecs that came off him i really dont know what i was thinking. THank god i listened to my horse he is much happier barefootclapping.gif

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